NPR's A Martinez asks Rufus Gifford, who served as U.S. ambassador to Denmark under the Obama administration, about President Trump's aspirations to take control of Greenland.
A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
President Trump has ramped up his rhetoric to take over Greenland.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: Greenland should make the deal 'cause Greenland does not want to see Russia or China take over.
MARTÍNEZ: Vice President Vance and Secretary of State Marco Rubio are meeting with Danish officials today about the Danish territory that's strategically located between the Arctic and the Atlantic. Rufus Gifford joins me now to discuss the stakes at hand. He served as U.S. ambassador to Denmark under the Obama administration. So what do you anticipate might come out of this meeting between Danish and American officials?
RUFUS GIFFORD: Well, gosh. You know, I can't say that I'm overly optimistic that this meeting will lead to anything concrete. These threats, this saber rattling, it's so reckless, misunderstands NATO. In my mind, it's just clueless as it relates to how we have historically operated in this part of the world and with our NATO allies. So I would like to think that Vance and Rubio would take those threats off the table and then work across the table with some of our best allies to getting - get to build this relationship the way it deserves to be built and with the respect that it deserves. But I'm not optimistic there.
MARTÍNEZ: Do you think, though, that the fact that there is a meeting makes this more serious than anyone might think?
GIFFORD: I think, certainly speaking from the Danish and Greenlandic perspective here, they're taking this very seriously. This isn't just the Danes and the Greenlanders. These are European and NATO allies as well.
MARTÍNEZ: We heard President Trump earlier say that Russia or China might take over if the United States doesn't, and Marco Rubio has certainly said the same thing. Do you think China or Russia could have an outsized influence on Greenland?
GIFFORD: Well, certainly, they could, but this is the absurdity of that statement, because, look, if God forbid, Russia or China made some sort of hostile action against Greenland today, five years ago, 30 years ago or 60 years ago, Article 5 of NATO would be invoked, and the entire alliance would be compelled to respond militarily. Greenland is part of NATO and thus would be defended by the entire alliance were they attacked in any way, shape or form. I don't believe you can make a national security argument vis-a-vis taking Greenland, to use Donald Trump's words, with any sincerity because we could achieve all of our goals regarding Arctic national security without having to drive a stake through the heart of NATO as they're doing.
MARTÍNEZ: Danish Prime Minister Mette Frederiksen has said that a U.S. military takeover of Greenland, which is something that the president has threatened to do, would be the end of NATO. Can you walk us possibly through that scenario?
GIFFORD: Well, it's so unthinkable. This is what I believe is the most successful alliance the modern world has ever seen and been responsible for so much of the peace and prosperity of the West, but it is not built to sustain one ally attacking the other. So it is hard to see how it survives were the United States to take hostile action against Greenland.
MARTÍNEZ: Randy Fine is a GOP congressman from Florida who introduced a bill to annex Greenland to make it the 51st state. And I don't think the Trump administration would add a state that they weren't a hundred percent sure would vote Republican. So I'm wondering, do you think there's a large enough pro-MAGA voting bloc in Greenland?
GIFFORD: (Laughter) You know, not to get too much in the inner workings of Greenlandic politics. But no, A, look, I mean, the politics of Greenland is actually quite far left. So it would be surprising to me that any Greenlandic voter would be sympathetic to the current MAGA politics of the United States.
MARTÍNEZ: Yeah. So, OK, I want to ask you this last question as someone who has served as the American ambassador to Denmark for a number of years. Denmark is a founding member of NATO, has long been a major ally of the U.S. and Europe, fighting alongside U.S. troops in parts around the world. How much of a heartbreak do you think it is for this nation that's so pro-American to face this kind of backlash from the United States?
GIFFORD: You use the term heartbreak, and that's exactly the word I like to use here. It is - we are the most important ally in the world to them in the way that they have been impacted by the rhetoric and now the actions of the Trump administration is both sad. It's kind of like stages of grief. There's sadness and now real anger on the part of not just the highest levels of Danish society, but also, like, the Danish street is extremely angry about this. But ultimately, this is also about the work of diplomacy and this word trust. We have spent decades building relationships with these partners, our NATO allies, and it is remarkable the rate at which one administration has gone to dissolve that trust, and those of us who care so much about this are going to have a long, hard road ahead to try to earn that trust back. But it's vital that we do.
MARTÍNEZ: That's former U.S. ambassador to Denmark, Rufus Gifford. Thank you very much.
GIFFORD: Thank you so much. It's great to be with you.
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